Why does larussa bat the pitcher 8th

This might just be the kickstart to the Mets offense that could elevate it to greatness. Mets: Matt Harvey ready for another comeback shot by Richard Heaton. Next: Matt Harvey is ready for another comeback shot. Rising Apple 3 years Mets: Matt Harvey ready for another comeback shot. More MLB News ». View all MLB Sites. More AL East News ». View all AL East Sites. More AL Central News ».

View all AL Central Sites. More AL West News ». Reply to dbiester. So, if Bartolo Colon is worn out from off-field activities the night before the buffet table , he'll only make it 20 feet towards first instead of the customary 45? Ah, what am I saying? Reply to Machaut. Assuming pitchers are fairly good bunters would it be likely they might try bunting more often for hits in the 8th spot?

Seems like I would have them taking more pitches and trying to do what they have been trained to do if I was to put them in that spot. Reply to onegameref. They're trained to be functional bunters, and they get a lot of chances to show that particular skill, but that's not the same as being a good bunter.

The point of a sac bunt is that you want to get it far enough away from the catcher that he can't pick it up and throw to second to get the lead runner and not hard enough that it's not basically a GB to third or the pitcher where he can spin around and throw to second. If you can do this and keep it fair, it's not an automatic play at first, but the reasonably adequate 3B can make that charge play and throw to first.

It doesn't matter if it was an easy or hard play at first, just that you took away the option of second. There's some room for error there. Bunting for a hit is another story. To take away the play at first you need to either be really fast most pitchers aren't to cut down just on sheer time that the defense has to react or you have to put the ball perfectly to where no one can get there in time, either by dragging it and using the foul line as your friend or a more standard bunt that's placed perfectly in the proverbial Bermuda Triangle between P, C, and 3B.

Much harder to do. If I were a NL GM or manager, I wouldn't worry about whether or not the MLB pitcher was hitting 8th or 8th, but I would insist that my minor league affiliates bat the starting pitcher even in leagues that have the DH, and they should be working on their hitting on their off days. It also makes the agonizing decisions somewhat less agonizing.

Reply to rweiler. One of the usual arguments against pitchers hitting, especially in the minors, is the chance of injury. But has anyone really looked at the rate of pitcher injury while batting? And just to make it even more complicated, what if having a pitcher miss a couple of starts during a x-year period reduced the chance of arm injury?

Reply to LlarryA. Reply to Oleoay. I've long wondered about lineup construction -- would a team with, say, Rickey Henderson first, Tony Gwynn second, Barry Bonds third and Hank Aaron fourth score more or fewer runs than a team with Bonds, Bonds, Bonds and Bonds?

Even if a GM constructing a lineup is overrated, it still makes a lot of sense for the manager to simply bat the two highest OBP guys in front of the two highest SLG guys. I wonder if Rouane and Carleton miss something by using aggregate players instead of individual players? On a team where that wasn't the case, might lineup matter more? Reply to rnolty. Along these lines, what if you had a David Ortiz or other stud type that you only used as a pinch hitter for whomever whatsoever at the most critical junctures of the game?

Bases loaded, here comes Ortiz. Need a run? Here comes Ortiz. Reply to aaronbailey Because even the best players in baseball only avoid making an out 40 percent of the time. Because if you have someone who is honestly that good, he's worth more to you coming up 4 or 5 times in a game, even if you don't get to pick his spots, than he does in one leveraged spot.

Because if he's that good, he'll probably be walked as soon as you PH him. The pitcher batting would be less than the 8th spot, but the pitcher's spot will also come up at least once in any three consecutive innings. The chart makes no sense to me. What am I missing? Reply to Marcgiz. That's how often does the 8th spot come up in a situation where a team is trailing, but it's close I used within 2 runs.

The 8-spot will come up at some point in either the 5th, 6th, or 7th, but there's no guarantee that it'll be a close game. I have a hard time believing that the modern baseball player will not feel "disrespected" when told that he's hitting 9th and the pitcher is batting ahead of him. If that is true, then perhaps it's not worth the small benefit the team gains. Reply to TonyMollica. I've heard AL managers explain how they want a "table setter" batting 9th.

How much different is it to say, "I want you setting the table for the top of the order, your job will be just like hitting in the one hole.

Get on base and score. Joe Maddon has echoed the "second leadoff hitter" thread. I suppose it's all in how you frame it. My real problem with batting the pitcher 8th is that it takes the bat out of the 7 hitter's hands. I don't think we can assume the league average 7 hitter stats remain steady if the pitcher is batting behind them. Although maybe the benefit to the 9th hitter having the leadoff man behind him negates that effect.

Once we start talking about taki. Reply to TheBish. It's an interesting inefficiency argument here. I did find that 8th hitters aren't IBBed as much as we think. Maybe that has something to do with the fact that the other team thinks "Well, it's just the 8 guy. Perhaps managers are responding to the cultural meanings that we attach to being a 8 hitter rather than a cold look at the probability.

If the pitcher is hitting 8th, the other team has to look at the option of IBB for the 7th hitter. The further you move the pitcher up the lineup, the more of a contrast there is between the pitcher and the hitter before him if the pitcher hits 5th, the team would likely walk the cleanup hitter almost every time! Glad you came up with a coin toss, because that is what I have been saying for years: It makes absolutely no difference whether the pitcher bats 8th or 9th, as far as we know, and probably entirely depends on the exact composition of the lineup.

Maddon does this to show, with no evidence, that he is smarter than other managers. Whether he is or is not, I don't know probably is smarter than most , but I don't think he is very smart at all compared to the "perfect strategist.

I also agree with the person above that, "Is. Reply to lichtman. Two things: 1 You state that Maddon "does this to show How do you know that Maddon does it for this reason and not because he genuinely believes he may be able to get some advantage from it? Assuming he would otherwise be batting 8th, how much shaming is there really to be done?

It's not like he's getting bumped from the third spot in the order. I'm sure a tactful manager would explain to his batter that he's hitting him 8th because he feels it gives the team a better chance to win. That's a positive thing, not a personal slight. Again, we're talking about a guy that would be normally hitting 8th anyway, so how much better or worse is that bitter going to get?

Reply to therealn0d. Most managers do whether their strategies are correct or not. My comment was hyperbole to illustrate what I think is his personality style egocentric.

Any evidence I have is that he makes many unconventional decisions that I believe are incorrect or marginal at best, this being among them. I have written about some of them if you want to do a Google search. By itself, the effect is probably de minimus. There's a positive way to look at "Maddon does this to show, with no evidence, that he is smarter than other managers. The game thatlists McDaniel and Warner is doubly wrong as those pitchers did not bat for the Cubs, but Billy Odell had a single in the 8 hole for the Braves.

Since , only once has a genuine starting pitcher batted 6th or higher: Gary Peters for the White Sox, May 26, He went 0 for 2. Peters, whose career average was. Since , there have been 45 instances when a position player -- originally batting somewhere higher than 9th -- was sent to the mound as a reliever. Want to guess how many times his team won the game? Well, on August 13, , Rocky Colavito pitched the last three [no-hit] innings of a loss.

The winning team was Detroit on October 1, ll, featuring Shane Halter. Halter played every position, faced only one batter and walked him, but was 4 for 5 batting 8th. Tovar started his game and pitched a hitless first inning, reached base twice as the leadoff hitter, and stole a base. Bobby Bragan was the Pirates's manager all year in After trying the idea once in July, on August 18 he started batting the pitcher 7th for 20 straight games , his theory being to put his best hitter up first, 2nd best hitter second, etc.

Two table-setters the 7th and 8th best hitters, according to the theory hit 8th and 9th. The Pirates's record in those 20 games was and a tie, or. Their record with a standard batting order was. I did some light research once in which I tried to relate a player's defensive position to the probability of him occupying each spot in the batting order.